This week we’re joined by environmental activist Ben Pennings. Ben has spent the last 30 years serving others through community work, grassroots activism, political campaigning and running a family-owned Psychology practice in Brisbane.
His work with the Galilee Blockade group and #StopAdani movement triggered a long running court case with international mining conglomerate Adani (now Bravus) in the Supreme Court. You can read updates and help support Ben’s legal fund.
Ben Pennings works in the space of environmental activism, particularly around thermal coal & gas and is focused on climate change as the “existential crisis that it is” he says. Ben tells us about his “David & Goliath” style battle with mining giants Adani which started following several successes in community organising for environmental justice, with fellow group members from Galilee Blockade – although he was singled-out and personally sued. Ben tells us the strategic litigation, a “slap suit”, is the biggest in 20-30 years, litigation against public participation. It’s been going on for 15 months in the Supreme Court and he has been forced to crowd fund $450,000 from 8500 people to be able to defend himself against the billionaires, while the corporation have had operatives follow, film and harass his family members. Meanwhile, Galilee Blockade have been able to continue their valuable work in environmental activism.
Tim, Ben and I discuss Corporate donations to political parties and the influence they then have on politics. We discuss the film Big Deal, (directed by Craig Reucassel) – on the same topic, as well as cash for access meetings with political ministers. Ben believes the public have become so used to corporate influence in politics that people are not even expected democracy anymore.
We then discuss that democracy is not on an equal footing for everyone – especially for those less privileged. Members of the community are able to organise, but they are unable to afford the large sums of money it costs to have any influence in politics.
We discuss the differences in accessing politics for minority groups, people with disabilities, people from lower socio-economic backgrounds, people who didn’t happen to go to “elite” private schools, people from other cultural backgrounds. Ben suggests that once a person enters politics, the sexist and racist culture in politics is a further barrier to a disadvantaged person.
A political party that doesn’t take corporate donations will find that a financial barrier too. Ben’s solution to this? To take corporate money out of politics so that it doesn’t affect decision making.
We then go on to discuss the political infiltration of community groups, community Facebook groups, school P&Cs, business councils, corporate boards. The community needs transparency on these memberships and to gauge what is the motivation? Political Gain? Or Community Service?
Ben says change has happened but slowly over time and only through direct action of the people. He feels a personal responsibility to lead that social change.
Ben’s 3 Big Ideas:
- We need a Federal ICAC
- Get Corporate Donations out of politics
- The Ability for the Community to Organise (without being sued!)
Beyond the Rona Podcast is recorded in Logan, Queensland on Yuggera country. We acknowledge the traditional owners past, present and emerging.
If you’re interested in coming on the show, please contact us, we would love to hear from you!
Episode Transcript
Andrea Wildin 0:00
We’re recording today on the lands of the Jaggera people and we acknowledge the traditional elders here past, present and emerging. Heaps of work to be done in this space
Andrea Wildin 0:17
Hello, everyone, I’m Andrea, former registered nurse and midwife and a community advocate.
Tim Hill 0:24
And I’m Tim, I’m a digital marketer and social media manager.
Andrea Wildin 0:29
Today we’re talking to Ben Pennings who’s actually done a lot of protesting work through out his life, Ben can you tell us a little bit of a little bit about what you’ve been up to? lately?
Ben Pennings 0:48
Yeah, the last few years, I’ve definitely moved back into the environmental activism space. So yeah, previously did that when I was very young at Greenpeace, but yeah, worked for a long time in different community organisations as a social scientist. But the last few years with the climate crisis and reading that I’ve done and being a little bit scared by the science and the economics moving slower and society moving slower than it needs to be. I’ve been privileged enough to really Yeah, work in the space of environmental activism, particularly around thermal coal, but also Yeah, gas as well and be really focused on on climate change as the existential crisis that it is
Andrea Wildin 1:31
I actually came across you in social media, when I was looking for somebody to advocate for people who were marginalised. And I was, I was disabled using a wheelchair and couldn’t get access to my, my local school to get wheelchair access in the local school, and I was looking for someone to help advocate for wheelchair access. And I was like, you know, madly Googling, looking for people who could advocate for, you know, for social justice on these sorts of things. And, you know, your platform was was pretty out there. Like you were quite well known. It was one of the first sort of people who came up who was who was out there advocating for, you know, for these sorts of social justice things. So I mean, yeah, you’re pretty, pretty easy to find and pretty well known that you stand up for, for social justice causes. But it seems like you’ve you’ve really pissed these people at Adani off. Can you tell us what’s, what’s happened between you and these Adani people?
Ben Pennings 2:41
Yeah, it’s been a bit of a it’s over many years now. So yeah, with the Galilee basin, I was involved in the reason what early days before Adani or before Adani was the most likely project there used to be a company called GVK. GVK really is another multi billionaire from India working with Gina Rinehart to open up some mines there. And there’s a lot of work went on, and the movement was quite successful in stopping that project, but then yeah, Adani through Yeah, very friendly federal government in particular, you know, with the loan that came up with Matt Canavan. Yeah, really got more serious with regards to their mining leases in the Galilee.
Ben Pennings 3:22
So I was one of the, I suppose one of the most public people in this area, particularly the most public people talking about civil disobedience and nonviolent direct action. So you know, with others, I started a group called Galilee Blockade. We’ve been seen to have a lot of success over time. With regards to engaging contractors and banks and others working with Adani. I can’t really be too specific about our successes or failures because of the court case going on. But obviously, Adani have thought that myself being a very public person, this area, and getting blockade being seen, not only by Adani, but by the federal government, as well seen to have a lot of success to really go at me in the court.
Ben Pennings 4:10
So about 15 months ago, yes, my wonderful wife opened the door to a dude with a big stack of folders of legal documents, and I knew straightaway what it was. Because when you are working in this space, there is always it’s only small, but there is a threat that a company can decide to spend what ends up being very many millions of dollars to try and shut community members up who are quite vocal in this area. So that’s what’s happened like the, what’s called a slap suit, which is strategic litigation against public participation.
Ben Pennings 4:45
And they have Yeah, it’s one of the biggest one in 20-30 years basically, it’s a massive suit with a number of torts alleging you know, damages and conspiracy and information conspiracy and, you know, all sorts of things with Yeah, it was a bit overwhelming to receive. And I have spent the time getting really good legal advice, and it’s expensive. I’ve had to raise $450,000 So far, and there’s been, you know, eight and a half thousand people or so community members have donated that, which has just been extraordinary to see because, you know, people care about democracy they care about, you know, bullying. Yeah, ultimately, to me, it’s a guy Adani’s worth almost $100 billion. Now, like, it’s extraordinary silly money, you know, wealthier than Gina and Clive and all those people put together. And yeah, going after to someone like myself with a house in the suburbs. And if they are successful, yeah, I become bankrupted, we have to sell the house, you know, where we love our place to been here a number of years, the kids love it, they’ve been here years, we’ve got a situation set up with one of the kids who has a disability, and that’s really benefits her and we’d have to sell the house and people hate that. And they are drawn towards that David and Goliath story. So it’s been really, it’s been really tough like, and it has worked to a point as an in 15 months, not much seems to have happened in the Supreme Court. And there could be a couple of years ahead.
Ben Pennings 6:18
But Galilee Blockade have kept going and doing their thing. You know, without me, I’m just one of many of 1000s upon 1000s upon 1000s of people around Australia, in the world who are, you know, trying to stop the extraction and selling and ultimately the burning of thermal coal from the Galilee, which we just don’t need?
Andrea Wildin 6:34
Yeah. Why do you think this so threatened? I mean, if there’s such, you know, billionaires, why are they so threatened by? by you? I mean, in the same sense, we’ve seen in the news recently that Peter Dutton sued and successfully sued some guy who made a Twitter comment, wasn’t it? I mean, why are they so threatened by these people?
Ben Pennings 6:59
Well, part of it is to scare others. So it’s been a quite a challenge, my end about some of the dodgy things that Adani have done in this case, including having myself followed, my wife followed, you know, following me walking kids to school, you know, all that sort of stuff, which is just horrific. And people are. Yeah, rightly, horrified by that, do we talk about it, because if we talk about it, we scare others, but we should talk about it, because it’s what this company shouldn’t be doing. And this company should be whacked over the head in the media, for doing such dastardly things. So but we don’t want to scare others. And, you know, I’m very happy to say that there is people of all ages, using nonviolent direct action, using civil disobedience and peaceful protesters been really staunch and strong to stop the insanity, which is new coal and gas.
Andrea Wildin 7:50
And at the end of the day, I mean, we’ve just had Cop 26. And around the world, they’ve said that we shouldn’t have new coal and gas. And our federal government has conceded and said, Yeah, we shouldn’t have new coal and gas. So like, what, what are they fighting for then? It’s, it just seems insanity? Yeah, I don’t understand. Yeah. Um, so how do these large corporations actually get a say, in politics? How would? How do you think they actually get a say, you know, in our politics, Ben?
Ben Pennings 8:32
Yeah, well, there’s all sorts of levels to that, in my opinion, there is like the, you know, long term, you know, the systemic basis of that, you know, big corporations are important, they have been important for a long period of time, and they’ve been central to the, you know, a capitalist economic system for a very, very long time, there is the whole, you know, we have to keep growing the economy is that growth is always good, grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. And, you know, and talk about jobs, jobs, jobs, rather than what type of jobs we want, and what that provides us and the value that gives us So it’s that extreme focus on, you know, economic growth is one way that it can be talked about, but it’s also Yeah, money basically follow the money, as they say, is that in Australia, but also in the US and many other countries, corporations are able to donate huge amounts of money, often in secret to political parties, and they don’t do that for nothing.
Ben Pennings 9:33
And they do it in different ways. And they sneak around and they do whatever they can to have that influence. So it’s pretty much against any corporate charter, who are meant to provide their shareholders with maximum profit to give away money to political parties. They’re not giving it away. They’re using it for influence. And they’ve done that quite successfully. And there’s been very close relationships, you know, that revolving door between various industries and the government as well and corporations use the money that they’ve got to bully politicians as well. And they bully politicians not to look beyond short term outcomes. And we saw Adani has bullied Queensland Labor in particular, when there was the possibility of getting some decent pokies legislation through the guards to protecting people. The pokies industry went berserk. When the super profit mining tax was proposed. We had billionaires throwing money into try and, you know, kill that and threaten people just by outspending them in an election.
Andrea Wildin 10:33
Yeah. Tim and I actually saw that movie Big money. Do you remember that? Tim? Was there? Any Yeah, that movie that stood out for you?
Tim Hill 10:45
Now? Yeah, the Craig Reucassel film, and I think hearing you talking about this Ben like it, it’s, you know, we should be outraged. I think this is the thing. It’s like, I’m sitting here going Yes, yes. Yes, they do that. Yes. That buys them influence. Like, I think the really interesting thing is when you talk to voters, and they acknowledge that this is kind of out there, like everyone realises this, but we just saw kind of, I guess accept it, and it’s certainly some, some of us are a lot more active in pushing back against it. But why is it? Do you think that we tend to acknowledge as a community acknowledge that this is all happening? But just go – Well, that’s the way it is?
Ben Pennings 11:30
Yeah, well, the bar has been lowered over time, like people are outraged, and but they have a very low opinion of a part of politicians. And they have a reasonably low opinion of lots of corporations. And that opinion has gone down, and they expect less. So it’s a real challenge to say that we deserve this, and we deserve a healthy democracy. And ultimately, it’s that, we get the democracy that we pay for, and we’re not paying for a chunk of it, it’s corporations that are paying for it, and they get the benefit. So and it is a really hard argument to say that we should have more politicians or that we should have more public money going into politics, but if we don’t, the money comes from elsewhere.
Ben Pennings 12:08
And yet the people putting money in get the say, like, even just this morning, I was reading in Brisbane Times have an exclusive where Queensland labor who are talking about being more transparent, had a big cash for access lunch, to go to this, you know, the elite business people spend, you know, five and a half thousand dollars a head. Yeah, they have a lunch, they can talk about whatever they want over lunch, but because it’s not classified as a meeting. We don’t know who was there. Yeah. So yeah, they’re hiding this cash for access. So, you know, and for five and a half grand, you know, then they’re not not doing it for the food, they’re doing it for who they can talk to and the influence? And, yeah, I can’t afford five and a half grand to go and have lunch with a cabinet minister. But yeah, but that’s what happens.
Andrea Wildin 12:57
And see, this is where it’s not actually, you’re not actually on an equal footing. I mean, the people of Logan and and, you know, the, the outskirts of Brisbane, it is a lower socio economic area. I mean, we do have the ability to, to organise, which is, you know, what you’ve been really good at doing Ben is, you know, organising people provided the, they’re able to voice their opinions, you know, verbally and, and, you know, they’re able to, I guess be, you know, access places, physically, you know, if there’s a ramp to areas, but, you know, they don’t have the money to be able to, like you say, to go to these meetings, because they don’t have, you know, they don’t have the five and a half thousand dollars to, to go to these dinners with these politicians or those lunches with these politicians. And, and that really isn’t putting people on an equal footing with these larger, you know, corporations, these property developers and these, you know, these rich business owners who are able to have their influence in politics. And, you know, that’s really unfair.
Andrea Wildin 14:12
I know I was a candidate for the Stretton election. And, you know, there were certain things that did make it unfair for a woman in a wheelchair in that election. You know, first of all the pre poll areas, not all of them were wheelchair accessible. So where the candidates were able to access all of the people areas to meet their constituents. I wasn’t able to meet all of the, the constituents myself because not all of them were wheelchair accessible. There was another incident where, you know, the pre poll area was quite unsafe, where there was traffic in the car park moving in and out of the car park and the The returning officer came out and asked me to move from the carpark because he thought it was quite unsafe for a person in a wheelchair to be there. But he didn’t ask the other two candidates to move from the carpark which made it quite, you know, it was quite a difference between a person in a wheelchair being, you know, handing out how to votes in, in that area, compared to someone who wasn’t in a wheelchair, you know, so there’s a difference between being in a minority group and, you know, compared to other people, there’s, there’s not a level playing field for people to to actually access politics, whether you’re a lower socio economic group, whether you’re in a minority group, whether you’re a person with a disability, you know, all these sorts of minority groups, it’s, it’s certainly, and certainly a person with a disability certainly doesn’t have the money that these, you know, billionaires and rich people have, as well for these cashed access meetings to influence politics, as well as the private school access.
Andrea Wildin 14:13
I mean, we know that well, I’m not sure if the numbers but the people who are in federal government now, there’s a lot of them that went to the same private school down there in New South Wales. And the fees to go to those private schools is, is out of this world. I don’t have the figures on me at the moment. But yeah, I mean, they all go to this same elite private school down there in New South Wales. And it’s like, well, if you didn’t go to that school, you don’t get to be in our federal parliament. You know, it’s, um,
Ben Pennings 16:44
yeah. And it’s, I think we need to put that elite in inverted commas, because it’s seen that way. And it’s talked about that way. And there is this still ingrained perception of they’re better than that than us, though. They’re more worthy, or whatever it may be. And because as you’re saying, Andrea, the Yeah, the access with regards to disability or cultural background, but ultimately, there’s that financial Yes. Yeah, restrictions is that if you’re working two jobs to pay a mortgage, or if you can’t afford childcare, or if, you know, all this sort of stuff, you’re less able to go along and participate. It’s right, in the political process. And yeah, having a sexist or, and or racist culture, within politics, you know, stops people engaging, as well, with regards to, you know, physical and emotional and psychological, you know, safety engaging in that process. So there’s all those, you know, much beyond the financial, right.
Andrea Wildin 17:44
And then we get to, you know, once they’re in Parliament, we have a look at our slush funds that they have, you know, we’ve had the sports rorts, where they, you know, they have those slush funds, and then they just, they want to stay in power in those, you know, in those particular seats, so they give out all this money to those areas where they want those particular people to vote for them. So,
Ben Pennings 18:10
yeah, and people have said that the again, the bar has been lowered as a back Yeah, I’m a bit older than you guys. But when I started following politics in the early 80s, that stuff was just unacceptable, people would have had to resign from cabinet and resigned from Parliament for what these days would see as a tiny thing and hardly makes the newspaper people were resigning for. And yeah, the bar has been low that they can get away with so much, and they’re getting better and better at hiding things or justifying things. And yet, part of it is it’s up to the electorate to give them a whack.
Ben Pennings 18:45
And I firmly believe there’s a lot of work to do that this upcoming federal election, I think it is going to be really challenging for the LNP to get in again. And part of that is just it’s not one thing. It’s just the the constant scandals and corruption and alleges of allegations of corruption and misuse of funds in the rorts. It’s so hard to keep track of it all. There’s been so much. And you know, I’ve been chatting with my parents recently who are quite conservative people and being conservative voters. And they’re, I suppose they do swing vote sometimes. And they’re in that situation where they just, even though they’re conservative Christians, the same as Scott Morrison is, they just I think they can vote for him. It’s just got that bad. And I get encouraged by that, with regards to them being very values based people and saying, Well, despite that he -what’s the word for it, you know, matches our values, in some ways with regards to honesty and integrity and someone who says what they’ll do. Yeah, he’s just not up to it.
Andrea Wildin 19:52
I think I mean, sorry, Tim.
Tim Hill 19:56
Just just to throw in a question here with that. The that film The Big Deal they’re talking about, you know, as a potential potential solution here is, you know, they were highlighting the independent movement and or indeed, you know, parties, like the Greens that don’t take political donations, that that solution to the problem almost seems like a, you know, a really obvious thing to do. But what do you think are the barriers for people to kind of jump that hurdle?
Ben Pennings 20:28
There’s, yeah, finances are part of it, like the Greens, for example, don’t take corporate donations. So yeah, there’s that financial barrier straightaway. And it’s really important, they do that and they differentiate themselves, but it means they’ve got less money to be able to engage people as they would like to. So that’s one of the real, again, really important reasons to take corporate money out of politics is not just because it affects decision making, in a way that doesn’t benefit the voters it benefits corporations is that it keeps this unlevel playing field there with regards to what parties can do, and it’s really hard for independents. It’s really hard for some of the smaller parties.
Ben Pennings 21:07
So you’re one nations were happy to take corporate money. So it was a really interesting thing in the Adani fight over the years is that many years ago, the yeah one nation were against the Adani coal mine. That may have been around racist reasons, for example, but they were definitely against the Adani coal mine. Adani donated 50 grand to one nation, which they gratefully accepted. And then not soon later, yeah, afterwards, they changed their tune.
Ben Pennings 21:33
So there’s a very, there’s a very clear timeline. Yes. So there’s, and yeah labor doesn’t take money from Adani anymore, but they used to and they have, and yeah, Adani, have definitely gone to the cash for access things with Queensland labor cabinet ministers over the years as well. And it’s extremely frustrating for community members and activists on the outside and you can feel disempowered. But one of the reasons for, you know, peaceful protests and activism is to show people the power that they’ve got. But you’re going to do beyond that you actually got to work in the within the electoral system we have as well and support the parties and the candidates that meet your values and have the policies that you want to see. And push for better. Like a lot of people, for example, have environmental concerns or social justice concerns, will go Labor’s better than liberal, I’ll just vote for them. And but they’ve got policies which are ultimately are no way near the best and environmentally, that will lead to climate chaos. We’ve Yeah, I’m very passionate about people pushing for better.
Andrea Wildin 22:40
Something else I’ve noticed that I’m just not quite sure how I feel about it is when I’ve been to things in the community, like, you know, I’ve I’ve been to like school P and C meetings. And there’s, there’s a Labor member on the P&C, or I’ve been to, you know, anything in the community, you know, business council meeting, or some sort of some sort of board meeting, and there’s a Labor member on on that board. And I’m just not quite sure how I feel about that, whether whether I feel like labor is infiltrating these places for political gain, or whether this is actually a good thing for these people to be in our community. I’m just- how do you feel about it? Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
Ben Pennings 23:36
It really, obviously, it depends on motivation. And unfortunately, you’ve got to be a little bit dubious because it is seen as a pathway. It is a way to meet people and get actively involved. And yeah, helping out the schools great, but it’s not just that. So you have all these, you know, different suburban Facebook groups that they encourage people to, and they’re very either clearly or surreptitiously run by people from political parties in the background to, you know, benefit their cause. So, and there is -.
Andrea Wildin 24:08
Yeah, if it was transparent, maybe it would be better. You know, if they said, Oh, this community Facebook group is actually run by Labor.
Ben Pennings 24:16
Yeah. And yeah, then the other side gets tempted to do the same thing. And you get a race to the bottom rather than a race to the top. So yeah.
Andrea Wildin 24:24
Hmm. Well, this has been a really interesting conversation, Ben, I think. Yeah. I think at the end of the day, we kind of need an ICAC like, you know, a federal a federal ICAC How do you feel about that, like, you know, some transparency and, you know, some ethics in politics. Have you got any Have you got three big ideas for how we move through this Coronavirus period, open up the economy and you know, bring some less corruption to politics?
Ben Pennings 25:02
Yeah, I think an ICAC is really important. And it’s been really interesting to see what’s happened in New South Wales over time. And New South Wales are actually the first state to ban property developer donations because of all sorts of dodgy things that happen there. But what was really interesting was that the property industry kept doing it. And they kept trying to find backdoors, and some of them ended up in jail, it would just show the, you know, the almost, you know, parasitic relationship between the property industry and local government, you know, in particular, and how tired and symbiotic that relationship was that even though there was jail terms at the other end, they were still doing it.
Ben Pennings 25:41
And, you know, it’s, I think this should be a lot of politicians federally scared with an ICAC, particularly if it’s retrospective, because of all the dodgy stuff that’s going on. I’m really proud that I’m a member of the Greens and the Greens have been pushing this for a very long time. And labor didn’t want it for a long time. It’s only through the Greens, embarrassing them and pushing for it. Now labor are supporting it, the LNP are very much resisting, but it’s also about the powers that it has and what it can do and the independence and financial independence because in New South Wales, they’ve slowly been taking money away from from ICAC as well. But ultimately, I think there’s electoral reform and taking corporate money out of politics are just as important because we can see everyday decisions not being made for us. And there is, you know, companies including through the Coronavirus, period really profiteering. You know, what, ultimately, is our money that we’ve worked hard for. Yeah, they’re profiteering and getting that money and then buying extra yachts or whatever else they do with that ridiculous amount of money.
Andrea Wildin 26:46
Yeah, and I guess, just like Tim’s wanted, you know, to allow people to what was what was your words in your three big things, Tim yet to let people organise or something it was, wasn’t it? Yeah.
Tim Hill 27:01
So it was kind of that sense that like, yeah, you know, the ability for the community to organise themselves. I mean, much like, what what you’ve been doing Ben, in doing so- That, yeah, like when a community does that in numbers, like, we have so much more collective power than I guess we realise. And we can make changes and yourself and like many other people, throughout history have shown that ordinary people from the community without special assets or anything like that can apply pressure and actually make, make incremental changes.
Ben Pennings 27:40
And that’s very, and sometimes it’s sorry, Tim, I’m sorry, sometimes it’s really actually hard to see the changes, but there has been extraordinary changes over time. Yeah. And it’s really like an example of that is people are still really pissed off at, you know, Queensland labor and the LNP with regards to coal and gas, right, in Queensland, but the politics of coal in Queensland, in particular has changed dramatically in the last decade. Yes.
Ben Pennings 28:04
So yeah, there’s no way that they can start giving away taxpayer money to dirty coal anymore, which they used to, and there’s no way that they can just invite people in and, you know, what they used to as well and give away our money to, you know, short, cut the process of all the sort of dodgy shit that they’re done, they still do dodgy shit. But with regards to what people will accept or not has changed a lot. But it has been hard work. And it’s been it’s involved blatant honesty, it’s involved grassroots activism, it’s involved, you know, having members of parliament talking about it, it’s involved direct action, it’s involved a lot.
Andrea Wildin 28:39
So it’s baby steps.
Ben Pennings 28:44
It is baby steps. But it’s also people having that vision and demanding what’s needed. Ultimately, we live in not only political reality, but we live in a ecological reality, and the ecological reality is, if we continue to keep living, how we live powering our economy, how we power it, consuming the amount we consume. It goes against the laws of ecological reality- we’re gonna bust Yeah, we don’t want to bust and bust is scary. And climate chaos involves, you know, not hundreds of millions of people. We’re going towards billions of people. And it is the people who are most marginalised are gonna cop it first,
Andrea Wildin 29:24
what keeps you keeps you positive, then after everything that you’ve been through? What What keeps you positive?
Ben Pennings 29:33
In a theoretical sense, I keep optimistic because of complexity. I know that humans are complex that human societies are complex, that ecosystems are complex. And yeah, I’m not a doomer that we’re all doom and gloom. We’re all gonna die but had the understanding of accepting the science and pushing as hard as you can, but not giving up because none of us know the future. And all of us can impact The future. So what else we’re going to do?
Andrea Wildin 30:05
Yeah. We haven’t really got a choice other than to keep going.
Ben Pennings 30:09
Yeah and there is, like I recognise that in many ways, particularly compared to when I was younger, I’m more of a privileged person and along with that privilege now to me becomes more- it’s a duty or a responsibility to do that, and not do that just for my own kids, but to do that for ecosystems because people deserve it. People deserve a happy comfortable sustainable life and they deserve clean air, fresh water and a safe climate and yeah there’s lots of people who actively push against that which to us is insane, but politics and social change is often messy and it involves a contest and it involves drama and the whole lot and we’ve gotta despite what they throw at us, if they’re attacking us it’s often a good sign. But we keep going and push on.
Andrea Wildin 31:01
It’s been really good to talk to you today Ben thankyou so much for joining us.
Ben Pennings 31:06
Cool. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it and I. When you do these things you think I wonder how that sounds? I’m looking forward to listening back.
Andrea Wildin 31:14
Yeah me too, actually. Thanks again Tim. Good to talk to you.
Tim Hill 31:18
Thanks Andrea, thanks Ben
Andrea Wildin 31:20
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